#201: Leading with Care with Bonnie Pugh, MD

Hey, this is Melissa Parsons, and you are listening to the Your Favorite You Podcast. I'm a certified life coach with an advanced certification in deep dive coaching. The purpose of this podcast is to help brilliant women like you with beautiful brains create the life you've been dreaming of with intentions. My goal is to help you find your favorite version of you by teaching you how to treat yourself as your own best friend.

If this sounds incredible to you and you want practical tips on changing up how you treat yourself, then you're in the right place. Just so you know, I'm a huge fan of using all of the words available to me in the English language, so please proceed with caution if young ears are around.

Melissa Parsons

Hello, everyone. I am so excited to introduce you to my wonderful guest today. I have known this beautiful woman for the past 25 years; we met in residency and have been friends ever since. And dare I say we have gotten even closer in the past several years. She is a pediatrician at COPC, which stands for Central Ohio Primary Care. She's the president of the board of directors there. She's also a medical assistant professor at OSU. And she's my amazing yoga instructor. And she instructs other people too. She's not my personal yoga instructor, although I would pay her to do that, which tells you some things about her. So we are joined today by Dr. Bonnie Pugh. Bonnie has spent the past two decades building a culture at her practice and at COPC. And she is out there transforming people's lives, both the physicians who work there and the amazing patients that they serve. She's an amazing leader. She leads with strength and with emotional intelligence, which, if you know anything about high-achieving women, that's not always easy to do. So beyond all of that, beyond all of that, beyond the titles and the accomplishments, she is someone who is figuring out how to integrate all the different parts of herself into a life that she actually loves. So she's a doctor, a leader, a mentor, a yoga teacher, a wife, a mom, a daughter, a sister, a friend to many. And she's genuinely one of my favorite humans. So we're about to have an amazing conversation with my old friend that is real and warm and full of all kinds of good stuff. So welcome to your favorite you, Bonnie.

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Bonnie Pugh

Thanks, Melissa. I'm so excited to be here.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, awesome. So I know you've listened to some of the podcast, so you may notice that-

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Bonnie Pugh

I’ve listened to a lot of the podcasts from the very beginning.

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Melissa Parsons

Yes, Bonnie is also one of my number one fans.

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Bonnie Pugh

I followed you immediately.

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Melissa Parsons

Immediate follow and no unsubscribing, which I love. So you may recognize this first question because it's the question that I ask everyone. So tell our listeners a little bit about your favorite version of you, Bonnie.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, Melissa, that's a really great question. I think my favorite version of me is who I am right now, which is super exciting. I feel like I have hit a point in my life where I'm able to really like live the life I want to live at home, at work, and in my community by just really focusing on connection, right? Like human connection in all those places and spaces. And I think that comes from a place where I finally feel like I'm most connected to myself. Like I've taken that time to discover who I want to be, uncover who I want to be, and keep continuing to just dig and learn and take those steps on that journey of continuing to find out who I want to be. But yeah, that connection, human connection, is something I want to bring to all the places that I touch with my family, with my friends, with my workspace. So yeah, I think that's who I would consider my favorite me.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, that's amazing. Now, because I know you so well, the people who are watching this may not have noticed, but I noticed that that question made you emotional.

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Bonnie Pugh

Oh, totally!

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Melissa Parsons

Tell us more about that. What's the emotion is that?

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, I mean, I think emotion comes very quickly to me, like it comes up, and I am not afraid to let it come up. And so part of that is, because I'm comfortable with that, and I'm comfortable with people seeing me for who I am, I will show up in a place or space, whether it's a board meeting, whether it's a class, if something truly touches me, or I feel something deeply, I let it show because to me, I think people tend to put on really good faces and fronts and want their best foot forward all the time. Well, part of our being human is showing how we feel and showing our emotions. So yeah, I'm not afraid to, to laugh or to cry or whatever it may be when I'm presenting something or if something hits an emotion, I'm, I'm in it. I'm in it for the hall. So I think part of it is like, I'm also really proud of the work I've done to get here, right? Like it took time.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

It’s not something that happened in an instant, and there are setbacks, and then there's like regaining steps to get to where you think you want to be. And there's never a point where like, you're at the pinnacle, because to me, it feels like a continual journey of learning. So yeah, so I just remember all those like missteps to and times when it wasn't great.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it takes not only time, but it takes intention and like you said, a willingness to be in it and to be in the moment and try not to like skirt past it and pretend like something's not happening or and just as I've observed you, you know, over the past 25 years, just so much amazing growth and, you know, you don't need me to say that I'm proud of you, but of course I am so proud of you and, you know, have just enjoyed watching you bloom and grow and blossom and wither and then throw up a new shoot and bloom and grow and blossom. Like we both love to work in the garden and take care of our flowers. And I just think the garden is such an amazing metaphor for, you know, what we do. You have to be intentional and tend to it. And

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Bonnie Pugh

Right. And sometimes you got to burn the whole damn thing down.

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Melissa Parsons

Yes, yeah, dig it out by the roots, baby, and start over.

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Bonnie Pugh

Start over and see what's gonna bloom.

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Melissa Parsons

That's amazing. That's amazing.

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Bonnie Pugh

It's the truth, right?

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to bring you on to talk about leadership and kind of how you made the transition from being somebody who was a worker in your practice and taking care of the patients from that perspective and kind of made the transition. And, you know, I mean, you're not at the top of where you could be in your organization, but you're pretty damn close, girl.

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Bonnie Pugh

Do you want to I'm about as close as I want to be

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Melissa Parsons

You're not gunnin' for anybody else's job. No.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, that's a really good, good question, because I don't think my intention initially when I became a pediatrician was to dive into the business side of what we do as much or the administrative side. So that sort of evolved. So a little bit about a company that I'm a part of and an owner in, Essential Ohio Primary Care Physicians, we're a physician-owned and physician-led primary care organization, the largest one in the country, actually. And so we're over 450 physicians now in Essential Ohio that have banded together as, you know, to really try to maintain ourselves as physician-owned and physician-led. So with that being said, we've always been a part of the process of being a stakeholder in the company, learning about our financials, our business model, what risks we want to take, what contracts are being negotiated. Even though we have all the business people to do all those things, it's still our responsibility as owners to have knowledge about all of that. So when I joined the practice that I've been with for the past 21 years, I was like the youngest person who joined the practice. I had three partners who were 20 to 25 years older than me, like decades, right? But these were women who were like pioneers in pediatric medicine, right? They were kind of forging the way. When they went to med school, there weren't as many women physicians as there are now. And they were strong women leaders. And I think I had really good examples of how to be a strong female leader. And so I learned a lot from them. Eventually, as they started to get older and retire, some of those like corporate admin responsibilities trickled down to me like, OK, well, you're going to be the next rep who goes to these meetings monthly to learn more about what's happening with the company, bring the information back to us. So I started to dabble in that probably about 10 years ago, just being like the rep for our office and learning more and learning more. And then the opportunity came up for me to lead our pediatrics division of COPC and run our meetings quarterly. Somebody had asked me, hey, I'm actually moving and retiring. I think you'd be a great person to do this. Are you interested? And I was like, OK, so I was lucky in a way, like people kind of identified me too and approached me because they maybe they saw something in me like I liked people, I liked getting to know people, I liked to know their names, I want people to feel welcome. So I did that for three years. And eventually, when one of another senior physician who was an appeared physician on the executive board retired, he encouraged me to run for that position, like another person, a different person. So, you know, it takes people along the way who see something in you and have that courageousness to say something like you'd be good here or you should do that. And then it takes that little bit of bravery of your own to say, I'm going to try it and see what happens.

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Melissa Parsons

Well, yeah, to believe them to believe what they see.

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Bonnie Pugh

I think the more I learned about what we were doing as a company and realized that it's pretty unique.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

Many offices are either still like on their own and struggling or just trying to make it work or have been bought up by hospital systems.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

So I really believe in our system and our practice model, and I wanted to see how that could continue and transform care for our patients too. So I joined the executive board and, um, the first year, it was so interesting. Um, I did it have a lot to say because I was sitting on this, you know, 12-member board with physicians who had been practicing for 20-plus years. I looked around the room. I was like one of two young females. I was the only person, only female of ethnic descent of color. Yeah. And I looked at these people, some who had been on the board for 10, 15 years. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, what am I going to say? That's going to have any impact on anything.

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Melissa Parsons

Wow.

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Bonnie Pugh

So I think the first year I listened a lot and I asked questions because I didn't understand certain things, but I didn't show up really boldly. And then eventually I started to find my voice a little bit more as I started to learn as the board transformed a little bit too and we saw different people come on. And I think the one thing that changed a lot for me in this leadership role was being a part of a program called the Physician Leadership Academy.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, so I'm glad you brought it up. Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah. So the Columbus Medical Association has a program called Physician Leadership Academy. It's a nine or 10-month program that is really focused on you finding your voice as a leader, not so much about like what your successes are, what your titles are, or it's really more about like who do you want to be as a leader?

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Melissa Parsons

Mm hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

How do you want to show up? And what is the best way for you to figure that out and get there? So there's so much focus on like navigating change and learning about systems and learning about there's a meditation piece that we did every month and how to run a meeting and how to have difficult conversations and generative listening. So there's like so much that goes into it. It's not a traditional medical leadership program. It is so transformative for so many people and I think it was for me too. And I had executive coaching and leadership coaching.

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Melissa Parsons

Okay.

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Bonnie Pugh

And that translates into how you show up personally in your personal life with friends too and with family.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

How to set boundaries and how to set some goals too. The PLA was really transformative for me.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, I've only heard amazing things about it from other physicians who have done it too.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yes. Yeah. The coaching piece. I mean, as you know, I'm a strong believer in coaching. Yeah. Same. And we do a lot of that in our company now too. There's a lot of coaching, there's group coaching, individual coaching, but I truly believe like having that partner to help you uncover what's already there, like get through the weeds to figure it out was a big changer for me. And shortly after COVID, our president of the board a year or so later decided he was going to retire. And again, I was approached by a few people and said, Hey, I think you'd be a great president of the board of directors. And at that time, my father was ill. And I was like, I don't have time to do this. I don't think I can. And, you know, dedicate the time to this. What's it going to entail?

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Melissa Parsons

Mm hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

And I was told, like, it's some meetings, it's this, it's that, this is what it would look like. It's a three-year term. You could potentially run again if you wanted to. And I was like, I don't know. And then I was approached again, like, really considered.

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Melissa Parsons

The universe was like, knock, knock. She didn't answer, knock, knock, knock.

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Bonnie Pugh

Okay, I think I'm going to think about this, like, of course, anytime come up with a decision like this, that's a big one that's going to impact my family, right, it's going to potentially take me away for meetings, impact my home life. Also, my work life because I have to sometimes be out of the office or be on a meeting or, or leave early. And so I spoke to first, of course, my husband and my coach, my leadership coach who I was still coaching with after the PLA. And then of course, I spoke to my partners at the practice and said, you know, I'm thinking about this, I don't know what it's going to look like, but it may look like this will just jive with our schedule at the office and everybody's like, go for it. Yeah, let's do it.Do it. See what happens. So I did.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah. It's amazing how it only takes one other person to believe in you and to, like, just plant that little seed of belief. And I think that, you know, I love coaching for a multitude of reasons, obviously. And I like to think of it... I forget who described it this way, but it's like having a sculptor, like this beautiful piece of marble. And, you know, when a sculptor works, they already know what's inside the marble. They're just chipping away at it to reveal, you know, the final... Well, not final product, but in sculpture, I guess it's the final product. And coaching, I don't think there's that one final thing. It’s chipping away and helping you chip away and question any of those little thoughts or niggling beliefs or that lack of belief, maybe, or the, you know, I don't want to inconvenience anyone, you know, whereas if it were... If I were in your practice, I'd be like, yeah, girl, go be the president of the board and, like, help us make decisions that'll further, you know, what we need for our practice and, you know, what we want and that type of thing.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, it definitely takes that little bit of external influence. But the other thing, Melissa, is I think it takes you to be ready to say, Oh, I hear you. Yeah, I can see that. I can see what it, cause there may have been a time 10 or 15 years ago where I would have said, no, I don't see that. I don't see it happening. I'm not ready for that. So I think there's also like that perfect combination of when you're ready and when you're open to it, then things tend to find their way like into that living space.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, and it's not always the right time.

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Melissa Parsons

Right, right, right, right. And knowing the distinction.

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Bonnie Pugh

Or it's not the right place or space for me. And I didn't know if the board would be the right place or space for me. Truth be told, I didn't know how I was going to show up or what it was going to be like. But I've done it now for a little over four years, four and a half years. And what I was told the job entailed is not what it is for me. Yeah, it's not. I mean, I just I really wanted to bring something unique and different to how I wanted to show up for that board of directors. And I think I've been able to slowly do that over time, not be afraid to bring in vulnerable moments, check-in moments, uncomfortable conversations, group coaching, individual coaching that all the board members do now because I think it's so important for us to encourage that development of ourselves so we can show up better for each other. So that we can show up better for the company, our employees, our staff, our patients.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all that you made this roll your own and brought your own special Bonnie flavor to everything that you do.

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Bonnie Pugh

And every once in a while, I'm sure I get an eye roll from people and that's okay. Like, I am okay with that.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

Because when things make people slightly uncomfortable, I feel like there's an opportunity for growth there.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, there's a sweet spot between making somebody so uncomfortable that they just completely shut down and keeping somebody so far in their comfort zone that there is no growth. So yeah, it's striking the balance and sometimes you overdo it and sometimes you underdo it and, you know, and yeah, you can't.

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Bonnie Pugh

Trial and error sometimes. Yeah.

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Melissa Parsons

It can't be everyone's favorite person.

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Bonnie Pugh

No, because not everybody likes peaches, Melissa.

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Melissa Parsons

This is so true. You could be the juiciest peach. Thank you, Brooke Castillo. Was that Brene Brown? No, Brooke Castillo.

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Bonnie Pugh

That's right. That's right. I knew it was somebody. I've heard it on some podcasts before. Who else can we quote today? You might not be everybody's favorite fruit. Because not everybody likes peaches.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, which I find crazy cuz I absolutely love peaches, but not for everyone, right?

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Bonnie Pugh

That's okay. I think that's something that's come, you know, with the growth and coaching is to understand that there are going to be differences in how people respond and react to the way you choose to lead. And again, it's not everybody's cup of tea, but what I've seen over the past four and a half years is a lot of growth in the people who I serve with.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

How we serve our constituents, like you could call them our sharers, stakeholders, our partners, our members and our staff. And so there's definitely been a lot of change, even in the dynamics of how we interact, in the demographics of who's on the board now.

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Melissa Parsons

You're not the only brown person on the board.

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Bonnie Pugh

No, and I'm not the only woman or the only yeah, there's younger women now. It's been a while. Yeah, but I love to see that shift. It's a very different group than it was when I started.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

So it's been fun. It's been fun to be a part of that. Yeah, I just am looking forward to my next couple of years as I serve in the organization. But I think that theme still is connection, right? Because we can only truly get better if we are connecting with our shareholders.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

Understanding their needs and helping to serve them but also helping them to understand the decisions we make.

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Melissa Parsons

Right. Because they're not always going to love them or agree with them right yeah and they're not made willy-nilly.

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Bonnie Pugh

But sometimes if you have that foundation of connection, then discussing a hard topic is not as hard because you have understanding of each other as humans.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, trust trust trust. I mean, I know that you know as pediatricians and as moms You know you and I have talked about our relationship with our kids and that type of thing and you know I'm curious how you think You know stepping into this leadership role and being in it and getting all the coaching and that type of thing that you have gotten Has made you a better wife a better mom a better sister about her daughter like You know beyond your role at COPC.

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Bonnie Pugh

Oh, for sure. For sure. Well, I think for one thing, you know, my boys are similar in age to yours, just maybe a smidge younger, being that they're both young adults now and out of the house. But I think the coaching has allowed me a couple of things I've learned that boundaries are important, their boundaries and mine.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

And respecting them for sure. And then allowing them to have their own pathway as well, which sometimes is really, really hard when things are hard for them and you want to swoop in to fix.

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Melissa Parsons

Yes.

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Bonnie Pugh

And so, I have learned to step back a little bit, I think, and not try to fix immediately or to fix, right, to listen.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

To respect what they're going through, to offer when they're ready or when they ask. Of course, unless it's something super dangerous, right? But overall, I think I've given them space to grow, which is so important as young humans and to make their own mistakes. As far as my spouse, yeah, like my husband, I think my own coaching journey and transformation journey from PLA helped both of us as well because we did marriage coaching afterwards, which was really great. After COVID, we decided like, oh my gosh, both of our children are growing up, they're going to be out of the house, what's it going to look like when they're gone? And again, are we traveling this pathway together with some shared similarity towards this next part of our lives?

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Melissa Parsons

Or are we not?

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Bonnie Pugh

Or I'll get out here in outer space just orbiting other moons or something. I was so lucky that he was like, okay, let's do it. I thought he would be like, oh my God, he's crazy, but he was like, okay, let's do it. I think coaching was really amazing for both of us. We did six months and it was individual and then together. We had separate things to work on and then we had together things to work on. It sort of let him down his own transformation. Like he quit his job, he's independent consulting. I feel like he has made a huge shift in his own life, but what I realized, Melissa, is again, he had to be ready. It wasn't me doing anything. It was like his readiness and his willingness. So yeah, I think it's made a huge difference in being able to understand boundaries. Knowing, as our dear friend Dominique says, which rocks are not mine to carry.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, she's always saying, those aren't my rocks to carry. Those are not my rocks to carry.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, so I think it's definitely changed relationships. And then I, yeah, I just feel like I'm always like learning from things I hear like on podcasts and books I read and I want to share that with them and knowledge like even in my yoga classes, right? If I hear something, I will bring it into class and like, boom, check it out, check it off the Dharma talk.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, I love it.

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Bonnie Pugh

Because I think for people like that resonates like when something is happening to you or you listen to something that has been meaningful and you're coming with that authentically people hear that it's not just me reading out of a book, which you can do for sure, right, you can and sometimes I do I'll read a quote and it'll lead into something else. But sometimes it's like, I was reading this book, I heard about this theme, and I was thinking of how this translates to blah, blah, blah.

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Melissa Parsons

Shared vulnerability, I think, is so powerful as a leader to be willing to go first and share your own vulnerability. And I think, I mean, obviously I don't follow you around to your COPC board meetings, but I definitely come to your class on Saturday whenever it's possible. And I do think that your ability to connect people, number one, is amazing. And your ability to share your vulnerability and laugh at yourself and get us laughing in class where sometimes you can be very serious. There's times to be serious, of course, but there's also times there's the yin and yang of it, right? To laugh and have fun and that type of thing.

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Bonnie Pugh

But let me ask you, can I ask you a question?

Melissa Parsons

Yeah, please.

Bonnie Pugh

So you came to my very first yoga class, remember?

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Melissa Parsons

I did. At COPC.

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Bonnie Pugh

In January of 2020. You came to my very first class and it's been six years I've been teaching in a studio studying. Sometimes, sometimes not in a studio studying, but what do you see that I do differently after so many years or what?

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Melissa Parsons

Oh my goodness.

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Bonnie Pugh

Well, there was a time when you weren't coming to my classes. And so then you kind of came back, which is great. And I love it. And either way, it is what, you know, we all have seasons and phases of what we're doing. So I'm just curious to see and hear from a person who saw me from the very start of, like, using together a movement class to what does it feel like now? Because I don't consider it just a movement class.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, not even a little bit. Well, I think that you are so much more comfortable in your presence. You know, I mean, of course, like that very first class, you were so nervous. And you wanted to do it right, quote unquote. And you wanted us to like point out your mistakes and that type of thing. And I remember-

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Bonnie Pugh

A high achiever and a high achiever.

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Melissa Parsons

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it just, like, it just feels so natural. Like it's just an extension of your giving, loving, kind, compassionate personality. And it just, it feels so natural. And I think, I don't remember if that first class, I don't remember there being any laughter. I mean, there might've been. Yeah, yeah. But now it's like every class, there's something to laugh about and something to find the joy in and that type of thing. And I think we haven't talked about this yet. It is coming, but we'll just do it now. Like knowing that you see yourself so much as a leader, as a yoga instructor and that type of thing, that you're going to be leading us in a retreat in Costa Rica and, you know, so just the confidence, I think, to take that leap and form your own business and, you know, get your LLC and, you know, that's so exciting. And so I just think, I mean, I thought that the first yoga class was amazing and I was so excited that you were becoming an instructor and just like the incremental, or not incremental, exponential growth that you've had in the past six years as a yoga instructor is like so good.

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Bonnie Pugh

Well, thanks. And I'm, I was inspired truly to try something outside of the box by starting my own LLC by people who have done it before me, like you started your own LLC, you just went right into coaching from being a pediatrician, right? It wasn't like, you flip the switch. I know there was a lot of work that went into it, right? There's work that goes into it, too. But, you know, having that readiness to do it, it just sort of happened for me this year, where I was like, I think I can curate something that I want to offer to people a place or space or retreat space outside of like our homes in a beautiful amazing country. I was so lucky to visit Costa Rica last year with Tom. And, you know, there was something when I left that place that said, had to come back here.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, we're not done with you yet.

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Bonnie Pugh

And so like, listening to that inclination within myself, in September of 2025, to say, that place is saying something to me, like, there's something here that says come back. And maybe, maybe it's still over some people, but like, I believe in that intuition. And those feelings that you get from things, and the more you learn how to listen to those things. You know, I'm not saying it's always going to lead you down the right pathway, but it's that gut feeling. It's truly like you're nervous system saying this is a place where I felt peace, serenity, safety, connection. And I want other people to feel that too.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

And so in January of this year, I just threw it out there and I was like, I'm looking for places to host a retreat. I'm going to find out what it takes. I'm going to find out how much money it's going to cost me, how many people do I need?

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah. Who do I want to partner with?

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Bonnie Pugh

All the logistics of it. And, you know, I found a partner that I wanted to work with one of my fellow yoga teachers, and found a great place that we decided on in Costa Rica, Casas Kismet, and Asara, I'm so excited. And we like took a leap of faith and put a deposit down for a week in April of 2027 and went live with our booking, maybe a month or mid-April, I think.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

And, um, we have 17 out of 22 spots, like, so deposit down. So I've got five more spots if anybody is interested.

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Melissa Parsons

In coming and practicing and sweating next to Melissa in Costa Rica.

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Bonnie Pugh

Also just like time for yourself to be on the beach or at the pool or experience nature and really take that moment of stepping away to connect back to yourself.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

And hopefully to connect to people in the group, like that's a big focus for us is having a community circle because, you know, we are not, we're not doing this thing alone. And whatever place or space you are, we're not doing it alone.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

Um, so I'm super excited about the retreat and then, you know, I don't know where the business will take me or not, but I'm definitely looking forward to, uh, branching out a little bit.

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Melissa Parsons

Mhmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

Offering workshops and maybe even partnering with local businesses to do things. Yeah. I have something in the fall that I'm going to do with the local business here to offer. Yeah, so we'll see what else comes of it. But I would do like lots of other things to it that lessons and workshops for companies, people, private, whatever.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, so fun. We will definitely be linking your business and your website in the show notes so they won't have to work very hard to track you down if they want to. I want to question something that we've been talking about because I like the concept of being ready for things and I also like the concept of starting before you might be ready, right? Because if you wait for that feeling of readiness, sometimes the feeling of readiness doesn't come until after you've kind of started down the path.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, I think that's what happened with the retreat. Like I don't know if I didn't know if I was ready. I was like, I'm gonna do it. We're gonna see who comes and see what happens. And I didn't feel ready until like, now. Now I'm like, Oh my gosh, people are coming and they're interested and they want to learn more. And so you're right, there is that a little bit of faith sometimes. Like, yeah, I'm gonna see what happens. And sometimes you fall flat on your face. Yeah, right. And that's okay, because you got to get back up. But yeah, I think I think you're right.

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Melissa Parsons

It's OK if you know that you're going to be OK if you fall flat on your face. And you recognize like, oh, I've fallen flat on my face before and I've always figured it out. And I've realized that the things that I thought that I wanted maybe weren't ever meant for me. And I was never meant to go down that path that I thought for sure I was going to go down.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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Melissa Parsons

Right. And I think that also speaks to kind of what we were talking about with the kids, the boys, we both have two boys, you know, it's like, Oh, I maybe had this thought and this dream of what you were going to do and who you were going to be. And now that I'm letting you be a leader of your own life without meeting the person who is supposed to be leading you, like you get to choose your own adventure.

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Bonnie Pugh

Mm-hmm.

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Melissa Parsons

And, you know, what I have tried to instill in my boys is I am going to be a lighthouse for you.

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Bonnie Pugh

Mm-hmm.

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Melissa Parsons

And I'm going to be here no matter what, and you get to go off and be on your own adventures, and you get to come back if you need something, anything. I am here, but I'm not going to be helicoptering over you or snowplowing over you or violating. I'm going to try not to, right? I mean, I don't get it perfectly all the time, and sometimes I overstep, and sometimes I do less than they need me to, but we've had that conversation of sometimes I'm going to overdo it, and sometimes I'm going to underdo it, and I want it to be an open conversation, and I want to hear from you like mine.

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Bonnie Pugh

And I definitely had that conversation with both of my voice, probably my oldest more, just because we've had more experiences, more journeys that he's been on and has had to switch paths a little bit. But yeah, I think there is a contrast to how I responded even a year and a half ago to some things he was going through and compared to this year. Again, similar things he was going through, but I was able to put things into perspective a little bit differently and trust like he's going to find his way. I trust that he is putting in the effort, he's going to find the way. And I'm here, Tom, dad and I are here. If you need support, we're here, that soft place to land, the house is here, right? The food is here, whatever it may be. The pantry is open, if you're going to pantry shop. But I handled it so differently even a year apart and even after all the coaching, right? There's still like so much learning that goes on every time you see something happen differently, how you respond. And I have learned like, oh my gosh, my kids are so resilient. Like they really will find their path. And so, of course my coach always does this. She's like, are you trusting in their capability that you don't need to fix this? And I'm like, oh, yes.

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Melissa Parsons

Oops, I did it again.

​

Bonnie Pugh

Oops, I did again, Brittany, right? Yeah. But the other thing, Melissa, that I've also learned, which I think you and I have learned a lot about with both of our kids, is it's okay to make reparations, too. Oh, yeah. That's a part of life. Like, not only with kids, with friends, with spouses, with our parents, right? Like, reparations can heal so much, even if things happened in their childhood. I think at one point I said something to my oldest, Andrew, if we were in a car, like, going to the pharmacy to pick something up, and I was like, hey, did I ever do anything when you were a kid that, like, really scarred you? Yeah, oh, we've had this conversation. Let's have this conversation about, like, scarring moments in my childhood. What trauma have I induced on you? I know what trauma it was for Ethan. It was Splash Mountain in Disney, but I think we've made that repair. Oh, no, poor Ethan. Oh, but he's over it now. But I asked Andrew, and he kind of looked at me, and he goes, what are you talking about? Like, you were a parent, like, you were learning, too, as a parent mom. And I was like, I know. But I'm also trying to let you know that I was learning, but it's not beyond me to say, maybe I made a mistake then, or I should have done this a little differently. And I think having that ability and openness with your kids is so freeing.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

And it lets them see you as human too, but then they learn how to respect that behavior of making repairs. And they can take that forward in their own lives, in their own relationship.

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Melissa Parsons

Well, yeah, because my thought is, like, one day, maybe, who knows what the path will be, but they're going to be parents and they're going to fuck it up.

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Bonnie Pugh

Oh yeah, we all do.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, I mean, every one of us, right? And they're going to now have this example of, hey, you know, you may not think anything now, but in the future, if you come up with something, if you're working with your coach or you're working with your therapist and you're like, oh, God, that really did cause me harm that I didn't realize that was subconscious. Like, I am open to hearing about that.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yes, like I want to know I need to know right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

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Melissa Parsons

So such amazing leadership. Our kids are so lucky. Our husbands are so lucky.

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Bonnie Pugh

No, but there's so much to learn from like letting them fall and this is something I talk about even like with my patients and families like let

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Melissa Parsons

Thank you.

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Bonnie Pugh

Two-year-old falls, they're gonna hit their head they're gonna bruise their knee let them learn to get up let them not make a team and let them know it's part of life to have a little-

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Melissa Parsons

Oh, it's all in there.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, disappointment, failure, whatever you want to call it. I don't, I don't know if it's truly failure per se. It's just, it's maybe it is, maybe it's disappointment. Failure doesn't have to be a bad thing.

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Melissa Parsons

Right.

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Bonnie Pugh

You know, I think about like, one of the books that has really impacted like, the way that I like, especially with female leadership, choose to lead and have shared this book with many, many women, physician women and non-physician women and partners in my practice and our leadership group at COPC is a book called Wolfpack by Abby Wambach. And you know how much I love Abby?

Melissa Parsons

I do.

Bonnie Pugh

Abby, please, say hello to me someday! Love Abby!

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Melissa Parsons

Bonnie was with me at Miraval when I met Glennon Doyle and for the rest of the trip, we had our heads on the swivel looking for Abby so we could meet her.

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Bonnie Pugh

But I literally have like, shared that book with so many people because she has such amazing like snippets and messages in that book about, you know, showing up for the team, being the best cheerleader from the bench, even if you're not on the first line, letting failure be your fuel, like, she just has so many lessons in that book that I think are so important and especially female women leaders.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

And banding together and like, don't break each other down, build each other up. Right. And there's, there's just so much in that small, tiny little book that I, it was one of the first things we did. We formed a, um, a female leadership group in our company. And the first thing we did was that book club was back and I've done it with the Columbus Medical Association women's group before and I shared it with all my female partners at the practice and I had them all sign their name and date it. Cause I was like, I'm so excited that everybody's read this book. And, um, just definitely one that I go back to a lot because I think, again, she speaks from a place where she was in such a competitive sport that was, you know, male-dominated. There was inequality and pay. There was all these expectations, men versus women, and she just like crafted open. And, um, yeah, I love, I just love it. I love that book.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, I have to read it. I haven't read it. Can you believe it?

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Bonnie Pugh

Oh my gosh, I haven't given it to you.

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Melissa Parsons

You don't have to give it to me. Do not give it to me. I can purchase my own wolf pack. Well, I know.

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Bonnie Pugh

But I do love seeing like all the names of the people who have read my copy of it.

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Melissa Parsons

Okay, well then I will totally buy into that kink for you Bonnie. I will do that for sure. Okay, I have one more question for you and it's gonna seem like it's coming out of left field, but. Tell me what you have learned about yourself as a leader by watching Heated Rivalry?

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Bonnie Pugh

Oh man. Oh, that's a good one. You know, my love for, for Heated Rivalry as well. What have I learned about myself as a leader from Heated Rivalry?

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Melissa Parsons

Or as a human, as a human.

​

Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, I mean, again, in contrast to like being a woman leader, I think seeing a love story about male athletes who are queer, gay, however they choose to identify, seeing that level of vulnerability and how that was navigated in the books and in the series, has taught me like, number one, there are multiple levels of leadership that people feel either imposter syndrome or like, ooh, if I come out or if I say something, am I going to be shunned? Right. So I've seen a parallel has been drawn a little bit. Um, and I also like, I feel like it's another, it's a series that could potentially like crack things open, hopefully for people, professional athletes, LGBTQI leaders. Like you, I want to see more of that openness, vulnerability, acceptability, and like finding their own voice too, and feeling brave enough and that, that there, there isn't going to be a level of, I mean, there's, there's always prejudice, there's always people who don't want to hear something or see something, but, um, yeah, I think for me, it's just another area that I have seen that you can draw attention to and call attention to by like this amazing love story in the, in the series, but then the young actors and how they show up for one another. Like we know a lot about female friendship.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm hmm. Right.

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Bonnie Pugh

And people don't balk about how women hug, hold one another, cry together, share experiences together. Like the female friendships that I carry with like you and my friends outside and my sister, right? It's a different type of relationship than what you have with the spouse or a partner at the level of intimacy. And what's wrong, nothing's wrong with that. Nothing's wrong with male-male friendship that has a level of intimacy. People get so scared. So I think it has shown up for me, and I'm not afraid to, number one, say that word. Number two, give somebody a hug. Work with a new physician who might have an issue or who needs mentored or who needs support. Like I will show up for you with my listening ears.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm hmm.

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Bonnie Pugh

And not new judgment.

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Melissa Parsons

Nothing but love.

​

Bonnie Pugh

Nothing but love. And that's part of how I want to show up as a leader too, is like, to be able to show up without people saying, Oh, that's weird. Or, Oh, she's, she's hugging this person, or Oh, she has her arm around it, or they're holding hands, like, okay.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think just the bravery that they have shown, the safety that I want to be available for everyone to love exactly who they love, however they want to do it. Just the fact that these young actors are willing to go first, I mean, not there have been people that have gone before them, but this is a pretty huge scale and just the... The amount of attention that it's gotten and that type of thing and just...

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, and they've showed up I think like each other they have not fallen into like media traps and like social media traps I think too which is so hard as a young person. It's really refreshing. It's refreshing to see like, I feel like there's a turn in the tides when I see something like that breakout and see so much support for it. When I see something like Mayor Mondani in New York City, right, and all the things he's doing, like, it's so refreshing when you see kind of a Barack Obama come back with how he's showing up and it's, it's just rewarding to see human kindness.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah. In leader roles.

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Bonnie Pugh

Because we need more of that, like more connection, more valuing like who people are instead of what they can do for you or how much money they have. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think it's a big lesson for all.

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Melissa Parsons

All that. Is there anything that you want to say, Bonnie, that I didn't ask you, that when I invited you to come on the podcast, you were like, I want to make sure that I talk about this or that we touch on that, is there anything?

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Bonnie Pugh

I think we talked about a lot of things.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

We spanned like a lot of things, but I mean, I just am so deeply lucky to have you in my life so thank you for having me on. I think like the friendship we have, the connection we have and have continued to build has been so wonderful for me always being a supporter, listening so I'm grateful for that and yeah I think like we're just lucky to be orbiting each other's lives and to spread. I think you know the one thing I'll leave with is people may not think they're making a difference by doing small things but it's all those small little shifts and we've talked about this that trickle and can create a shift and a change. Even if I'm teaching a class to 20 people, if one person hears something and it resonates to me. That's important if one person is affected because then maybe that person, it's another person. It's another, it's another. So like people who are listening who maybe haven't taken a leap or want to take a leap or are worried about the outcomes or, well, it's not going to be the biggest change. I can't change the world. None of us can change the world as one individual, right? It's that little shift step by step, which I think we're doing with our wellbeing work in our company, like slowly shifting culture by bringing in and bringing back in like connection, coaching, mentoring, peer relationships. Like that piece has been a really important thing for me the past year and a half that I've been doing too. So like even that little shift.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm.

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Bonnie Pugh

And sometimes people want to see big changes quickly.

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Melissa Parsons

Right.

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Bonnie Pugh

And it doesn't always happen that way. But if there's something that you believe in, I believed and really wanted to do like physician mentoring for our new providers. And I, again, I took that chance to bring it to our leadership team and they said, okay, let's see what, let's see what it looks like. Let's see what you can do. And the past year and a half, it's been one of the most rewarding things I've done, connecting, helping other people feel supported, problem-solved, be an ear to listen to, connect them with people who might be able to help them. It's one of the greatest gifts.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah.

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Bonnie Pugh

Even if it affects one person, it might affect somebody else down the road.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah. Yeah. I love the idea. I want to say two things and then I'll be quiet because this podcast could go on for like six hours. The first thing is that I love the idea of me having no idea who I'm affecting, right? Because it goes through one person and then the next person, like this game of telephone that I have no idea who's at the end of the line.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yes.

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Melissa Parsons

I mean, I love helping the people that I actually know that I'm helping to, like don't get it twisted, but I also love the downstream effect that I'm going to have no idea.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, I mean, half the podcasts I listened to, right, they don't know that their wisdom has then led me to say something to 20 other people in a room that may, you know, that's what authors do, right? They write a book.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm, just put it out there in the world.

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Bonnie Pugh

Boom, like they're never going to know that trickle either. It's amazing.

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Melissa Parsons

Mm-hmm. And then I think just to bring it kind of back full circle to what you first said was I'm seeing now that you mentoring people at this stage of your career is basically taking you back to the people who saw something in you and believed in you and now you're able to pay that forward and mentor the younger people and see things in them that they might not quite have the readiness to see but you planting that seed and you know I believe in all the woo-woo shit so planting that seed and like you know giving them that idea that it might be possible for them as well.

​

Bonnie Pugh

Right. And then you're just a continued resource, but it goes both ways. Like I gain as much from that relationship as hopefully they do too.

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah, yeah. So because that's who you are, my sweet Bonnie Pugh. Okay. Tell everybody who's listening if they're like, I must know this person better. How can they find you if they want to join us at the retreat in Costa Rica? How do they do that? Like I'll put it all in the show notes, but in case somebody's listening and they just want to hop on to Google real quick.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yeah, they can go to my website for my yoga business or wellness business, mindfulflowwellness.com and there's a page on the website that says contact me and that'll come directly to my email. So that's a way to contact me regarding like wellbeing offerings, teachings, private lessons, hosting retreats, this, that, or the other. And, um, as far as like my pediatrics business,

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Melissa Parsons

Yeah. Yeah. If they're like, I want this woman to be my pediatrician.

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Bonnie Pugh

Yes, well, it's Central Ohio Primary Care, so you can just Google my name and sign me on COPC, but I gave you that information as well, but certainly one of the things I love to do is being that practitioner, but all of the things I do, like I said, it's really about connecting with others.

​

Melissa Parsons

Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for connecting with me today and for sharing.

​

Bonnie Pugh

Thank you for having me on, even when I had that moment of panic, like, what are we going to talk about? I was like, girl, I got you. And you're like, you kill me.

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Melissa Parsons

Well, I did throw in the left turn there to Heated Rivalry, but I knew that you would be able to hit that one out of the park because of our shared love of Connor and Hudson.

​

Bonnie Pugh

Of so many things, right? Yeah, thank you for having me.

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Melissa Parsons

All right, Bonnie, I love you. Have a great night.

Bonnie Pugh

Love you.

Melissa Parsons

I'll see you all next week.

Hey - It’s still me. Since you are listening to this podcast, you very likely have followed all the rules and ticked off all the boxes but you still feel like something's missing! If you're ready to learn the skills and gain the tools you need to tiptoe into putting yourself first and treating yourself as you would your own best friend, I'm here to support you. As a general life coach for women, I provide a safe space, compassionate guidance, and practical tools to help you navigate life's challenges as you start to get to know and embrace your authentic self.

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